T595 Oil Pump And Drive Gear Advice

Discussion in 'Technical Help' started by StuarT595, Mar 16, 2021.

  1. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    I noticed the drive gear/cog behind the clutch basket had a small amount of play/wobble on the splines. I had to drill and use an extractor to remove the retaining screw so, two things:

    1) is the play/wobble acceptable? I can’t see any damage or wear to the splines.

    2) does anyone know the inner-workings of the oil pump itself? When drilling out the screw, my cog ‘lock’ slipped and allowed the cog to spin with the drill for a second or so, which I think is in reverse for the oil pump...what are the chances that’s knackered the pump? As long as the oil pressure light goes out can I assume all is well?

    https://youtube.com/shorts/noiuEGoijHU
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    What’s your thoughts on putting in a shim/washer as a solution? Would I put it all at a greater risk of coming undone if I say ended up with a micro gap between the ‘dished’ washer and the end of the shaft? Or would the transferred torque through the added washer to the cog suffice to keep it together?
    I guess the risk is if the cog ever moves/wears back further onto the spline/shaft then both washers would be left flapping in the wind, with only the bolt screwed into the shaft end without any torque keeping it there?

    8550E5DC-8E78-4417-9FEF-F0C483132BAC.jpeg

    CABB9BBD-A016-46D8-B841-F3D9C1591F8A.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,441
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    OK splined shaft fit is usually interference as if loose the splines of both the gear and shaft will hammer with use and become even looser as you surmised,

    So the original fit was tight? And held on the splines by the washer in your drawing but has now become loose? Your idea of adding a larger diameter washer to secure could work OK as long as the bolt/nut are thread locked, but it would be preferable to use a tab washer, but that would require drilling.

    Most oil pumps are either gear or vein type so use interlocking gears or veins/lobes to push the oil through, so loading depends on the size of the gears verses the drive gearing along with the oil viscosity.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    Thanks, TD,
    Late getting back because of a long day fitting the head back into the frame...leaving the clutch as the last job, knowing the oil drive is behind it!
    That cog has been going round and round inside my head! It occurred to me the dished washer may not even be flush against the shaft due to previous excessive thread lock or gunk (it’s been removed before, the Torx was knackered), I never looked for this! 0.05mm of burr/gunk/thread-lock would definitely prevent the washer from sitting flat against the end of the shaft.
    Will be taking the clutch basket out again tomorrow, so will check this possibly/hopefully overlooked issue!
    TBC
    Cheers,
    Stuart
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    @Tricky-Dicky I didn’t get round to the clutch today, so will check back in tomorrow. In the meantime, if I should require a washer, did you mean something like this (below), and then drill a hole in either the cog or the dished washer to locate the lug in?

    D6DF1925-9B52-4CF2-ADD4-4059F0D1699A.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,441
    1,000
    Norfolk UK

    Your on the right track the inner tab would locate in the spline and the outer would fold over tight up against the bolt/nut.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    So, as a bit of an update, I wondered whether the back of the dished washer was actually flat, so rubbed it over a bit of Emery paper to find it was concave. When sanded flat the washer took up much more of the cog slack, but still a feeler gauge gap of 0.1mm is present behind the washer after tightening.
    So I’m going to make a 12mm x 22mm x 0.1mm washer from stainless shim sheet and fit it behind, UNLESS anyone has any insights into this being a bad idea?

    2044EF47-6AB6-49D9-B15F-AA11ADC440AE.jpeg

    2C1E817D-13B9-4CE5-A1F2-80FA70F405E5.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,441
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    What about the other side of the washer is it deliberately concave to take up any gaps? That bolt/screw looks mullered I would look at replacing it, the other option is if you know someone with a lath to make you up a recessed washer to take up any slack and hold the gear tight on the shaft.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    I’ve been calling it a dished washer, but I realise the term might be confusing as it’s really a countersunk washer. I’m wondering now whether the back (the sanded bit, which has now been completely flattened) should actually have had that profile? Will buy a replacement and find out.
    The bolt/screw was drilled and extracted, so definitely mullered!

    FF189B96-EDB7-47B7-AF34-310FCB6E216C.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2015
    3,399
    1,000
    Barnsley
    Is this any good to you. It’s 0.45mm thick stainless, the centre is 15mm
    C2E8D596-3B42-49D3-9858-298621E2D3BE.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    That’s extraordinarily generous of you, YM...I think, because the gap is greater than 0.1mm (somewhere between 0.1 and 0.15) that the washer would simply ‘dangle,’ not being crushed by anything. I was taking a look at a few preformed shims online and could only find 12 x 18 and 16 x 22, plus the 15mm variant you have there.
    Truly appreciate you coming forward with that though. Best, Stuart
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,441
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    Is the gear a loose fit on the shaft splines? Or a good push fit? I am wondering if it was ever a secure interference fit?
    The loading will not be great but as I said before because of the way a straight gear drive behaves there will always be a back and forth hammering effect however slight and it maybe a case that this would take considerable mileage before and appreciable wear/looseness took place.

    As another option if you want I can shove that washer in my lathe and try and undercut one side to take up the slack if you want, but this would remove a slight amount of the countersink and could possibly stop the bolt from tightening enough....I doubt it but it's a possibility?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    #13 StuarT595, Mar 25, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
    Not sure what happened with the quote then - see below :neutral:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    @Tricky-Dicky Re interference fit, this has also been suggested: ‘if the designer wanted the gear to be held axially tight with the screw and washer, they would have put a shoulder on the shaft for the gear to butt against.’
    There clearly isn’t a shoulder on the splines (see drawing and grainy manual picture of the actual splines the cog goes onto), so I’m even wondering if it needed to be tight in the first place? There is a YouTube link at the start of the thread that shows the amount of movement on the splines, let me know what you think?
    AND finally WOW, such generosity on here. The lathe job would be the best of all solutions if I end up needing to crush that cog into the back of those splines. That’s so kind of you to offer, and for me to have that in the back of my mind is amazing.

    F642DC1C-5406-4206-AF69-EBD8FB8285DB.jpeg

    06C4B524-3485-4F19-8492-9EF48FB30619.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,441
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    Not being familiar with that motor I can only surmise just how it's all configured and in particular what is on the other end of that shaft and if that pic is the other end of that shaft what is the other gear driven but also what type of bearing is the shaft running in this will tell me more of just how it was intended to work.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    It runs the oil pump as pictured here (the arrow points to the splines the offending cog fits on).
    There doesn’t appear to be any bearings at all, looks like the case has been machined, a bit like the camshaft journals?
    I can take some photos of the actual shoulder of the splines, and the back of the cog too if that would help to shed any light?

    BEBAADDE-1399-46EC-A188-AE50D814D189.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    So, even another thought...the splines themselves are specifically oiled by the cut out seen in the picture I’ve just taken of the actual spline itself.
    Seeing that the actual shaft itself is equally oiled from behind inside the gearbox by a similar cut out, would it be a correct supposition to think that, given the splines dedicated oil supply and the internal star-shaped of the cog itself, that it was actually designed to be oiled and move? Maybe the oil compression takes up the slack?

    58C64906-F62F-448E-9732-CDF03DD6C4EE.jpeg

    83909858-A3B6-4A1C-A255-E8F71CE41B58.jpeg

    0D8823E8-0368-44BA-9FA4-D7B0D44A1E0B.jpeg

    BDAF73DB-F5CC-49AB-BBAD-65077A574DB8.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,441
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    Don't worry I was overthinking it, now I have the full picture I would now say don't worry as it's just a reduction gear and the loadings are pretty small hence the plain alloy case bearing, there is no oil feed other than splash, so I would now say just bolt it up using a bit of locktite on the bolt thread and forget about it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. StuarT595

    StuarT595 Active Member

    Nov 19, 2020
    204
    43
    South West UK
    You’ve been a great help...many thanks!
    Have a great day!
    Stuart
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Tricky-Dicky

    Tricky-Dicky Crème de la Crème

    Dec 12, 2016
    2,441
    1,000
    Norfolk UK
    No worries happy to help.:)
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
Loading...

Share This Page