Thunderbird 900 Spitting Out Its Coolant

Discussion in 'Technical Help' started by Stu9000, Jun 22, 2024.

  1. Eldon

    Eldon Elite Member

    Nov 14, 2018
    6,306
    800
    North Yorkshire
    Do a compression test and post the figures?

    Carb balancing shouldn't affect it from an overheating perspective but a lean mixture would.
    Could you have a minute water leak on a right hand cylinder ( exhaust smoke on start up)?
     
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  2. speeder

    speeder Noble Member

    Jan 3, 2019
    408
    313
    dorset
    It's got all the symptoms of a failed head gasket.
    Any decent dealer will be able to do a pressure leak down test to prove one way or the other
    The one discoured plug suggests to me that is the cylinder coolant leaking into and compression is leaking out of blowing the coolant out.
     
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  3. Johnjo

    Johnjo Senior Member

    May 29, 2017
    548
    243
    Birmingham
    Really sorry to hear you haven't sorted this Stu.

    If you are having trouble sourcing a new stat could you not just remove yours completely and run the bike without one. Purely to eliminate the possibility of the stat being the cause.

    I vaguely remember doing this in the early 70's on old minis I used to run.

    Although speeder may be onto something with the head gasket idea.
     
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  4. Bolosun

    Bolosun Well-Known Member

    Aug 25, 2020
    236
    93
    Crewe/Cheshire
    Might be worth getting one of these
     
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  5. Eldon

    Eldon Elite Member

    Nov 14, 2018
    6,306
    800
    North Yorkshire
    That's where I was going @speeder but didn't want to frighten him off straightaway.
     
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  6. Iceman

    Iceman Crème de la Crème

    Apr 19, 2020
    2,391
    1,000
    Lancashire
    There are a few things that can and do cause overheating, you have eliminated a few, therefore for me I would firstly check the radiator, it may appear to be ok, however sediment can and does build up in the core on older machines, especially if they have been laid up, this sediment turns hard and restricts flow, leading to overheating, I would drain the whole system and flush it through, some people insist on using distilled or de ionised water, I have only ever used mains water via a suitable attached hose, although I don't live in a hard water area. That said do workshop staff use distilled water when changing coolant, you would need a huge amount in stock and great cost. You say the thermostat was sticking but did open at the correct temperature, at least that is a clue, if it is sticking but eventually opens it could lead to overheating, personally when I test thermostats, any sign of a fault I replace, It is rare I would put back any removed thermostat that I had taken out for testing, just for peace of mind, you say they are hard to come by, those thermostats are not made by Triumph, they are fitted to a number of different models and manufacturers, so get the number off the stat and look at an alternative. Given it blows out smoke on start up, if grey in colour it could be the head gasket, although it would be there all the time, when a machine spits out coolant is is usually down to excessive pressure, caused by a fault with either the radiator, thermostat sticking, or not opening correctly, restriction in the engine water jacket or failure of the head gasket. Always go for the simplest to try first before moving to the most serious, in your case unfortunately would be the head gasket.
     
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  7. Bikerman

    Bikerman Life's not a dress rehearsal.
    Subscriber

    Oct 29, 2014
    2,174
    1,000
    Lincolnshire
    Boy oh boy you're having a right old time of trying to sort this out.
    I've a 900 Thunderbird, that had a similar problem to you. A new radiator cap fixed it right away.
    But that was because I contacted Clive Woods https://www.mk1speedtriple.co.uk/clive-wood-independant-triumph-specialist/
    He is brilliant, he is so helpful, I was on the phone to him for well over 40 mins last year, he was running through everything that I'd done, and giving me advise along the way too. One thing he told me was don't fill the coolant overflow bottle above the minimum line. Since following his advise, I've had no problems at all.
    Give him a ring, he really is a great guy, and I'm sure he, like others on this forum, will help you to get to the bottom of this.
    I really hope that you'll get it sorted.
     
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  8. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    thanks. Appreciate the moral support. I think I will do this. Takes longer to warm up of course. And I have held off because she is already a bit hard starting. But it could be an important indicator of what is going on. And easy to do.
     
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  9. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    Thanks. As you say, discount the easy things first. My time is cheaper than a garage specialist. Smoke is grey on start up but clears after about 3 minutes. I'll film it and post here when I get a mo. I have flushed the rad. Also put some kettle descaler in. No real change. Flow was strong and clear. As you say, discount the easy things first so, as others have suggested, I'll take out the stat entirely to see if the overheating disappears. But I'm not betting on it.
     
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  10. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    This is my fear.
    I'll pull the plugs to see how they are after a few runs with the new coils.
    I thought a gasket failure would put water in the oil, which does not seem to be happening.
     
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  11. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    This is interesting.
    £30 worth the spend for a confirmed diagnosis.
    Have you used one on a bike?
     
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  12. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    This is interesting.
    £30 worth the spend for a confirmed diagnosis.
    Have you used one on a bike?
     
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  13. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    Thanks. That's useful.
    Did a compression test in September.
    L cylinder 12 bar = 175 psi
    Middle cylinder 12.1 bar = 180 psi
    R cylinder 13 bar = 190 psi.

    Yes getting exhaust smoke on right peashooter on startup. Clears after 3 minutes. Your talking about gasket failure right? Small makes sense. Occasional over heating and loss of coolant is where this story started. But it will no doubt get worse and worse.
     
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  14. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    I have ordered this cheap tester.
    Looks a bit janky but it's just bad flowing through fluid so should work ok.
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285997178805m

    I'll hold off asking a million questions about gaskets till I have a smoking gun.
     
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  15. Iceman

    Iceman Crème de la Crème

    Apr 19, 2020
    2,391
    1,000
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    Yes I have used this system numerous times, mostly on cars, but have done so a a couple of bikes, and it does work.
     
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  16. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    Ok. Gasket issue confirmed. just found creamy emulsion in the oil. At this point I'm relieved to have found the cause.

    How hard is it to strip down and redo the gasket. Would I have to redo the timing chain. Not sure I'm up for this on the drive in winter.

    Could be warped I guess. Engine got quite hot a couple of times with thee overheating issues. That would require the head being skimmed would it not?

    I'm thinking about trying gasket sealer. I don't think the leak is bad as it took a while for the oil to emulsify, and the coolant isn't disappearing fast (unless it boils). Also the white exhaust smoke is for couple of mins at start up. Compression results were not bad either.

    I know some people here will always want to go for the proper fix, and I do hear that. But bear in mind the bike is only worth a couple of grand. If there are no big downsides I'm thinking it's worth a try. The Chris fix yt video was quite convincing.

    Maybe take the thermostat out while sealer is doing it'd thing. And replace the oil.
     
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  17. Iceman

    Iceman Crème de la Crème

    Apr 19, 2020
    2,391
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    Lancashire
    I get why you want to try the sealant, firstly it acts a little like the liquid used to inflate tyre punctures, it is a short term measure, and will leave a mess inside the water jacket, if a head gasket has failed then the only real option is remove the head and replace the gasket with either an OEM item or top quality replacement, it is not worth cutting corners, the head needs to be checked for any sign of warping, or cracked valve seats, also I would replace the timing chain and tensioner. If you are unsure about taking the work on yourself then look for a reputable independent workshop who can do the work for you. To do the job it does unfortunately need reasonable skills and more importantly the correct tools, you only need a sized head bolt to snap and without the right tools you could be in difficulties. I use an induction heater kit for such jobs, you may be able to hire one if the need arises. I really feel for you, the work is all straightforward, however think it through before starting work. Even my 4 year old STRS threw up a few really stubborn and sized fasteners, and 1 item I couldn't get the CH in to heat it up, and that took 4 hours alone. Keep the forum posted on your progress and hope it all goes ok.
     
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  18. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    Spoke to my local Triumph garage. Not an independent. But always been very very pleased with the free advice and reasonably priced work done. I was rough quoted 8 hours to sort blown gasket. at £120 ish an hour. That's £££ before any parts purchased.

    I cannot do this job myself on the drive in winter without the right tools or experience.

    The garage said it did look like a blown gasket, but it was worth checking.
    They suggested I turn the bike over with the coolant cap off. If the gasket is blown, water will spout out.
    I did the test this evening.
    No spouting water!
    When the engine first caught there was a little plop, but no overflow at all even when i revved the engine. Bike was on the centre stand. Before starting I filled her up with water.

    Does this mean there is no combustion getting to the coolant?
    Is it still possible to have a gasket leak from water to the oil?

    The bike last had an oil change about a year ago.
    Approx 6k miles. Bike sits outside on the drive, but under one of those pram hood style covers. I'm not at all convinced that the emulsified oil I saw on the oil cap is just from condensation. But wouldn't it be nice!

    I am waiting for my ebay blue bubble test thingy, which might sniff out combustion in the water. But I'm not getting bubbles or spouting.

    I am going to change the oil and filter, and do a bubble test on the coolant when it arrives.

    My compression test a few weeks ago suggested good pressure. But maybe there is a problem with the water and oil. Has anybody had water in oil, without combustion being affected? What else could contaminate oil?

    Thanks.

    S
     
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  19. Iceman

    Iceman Crème de la Crème

    Apr 19, 2020
    2,391
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    You can still get good cylinder pressure even with a failed head gasket, it depends on the area of the gasket leak, is it across say two cylinders, or a corner fail, they can go at the water jacket joint, if it has failed between 2 cylinders yen this would be indicated via a low compression test reading, this is why I prefer doing a pressurised test via a compressor, using this method you get accurate indications, as an example if the engine had a leaking or burnt out valve, you would hear the escaping noise of the air coming through either the exhaust or air box depending on an inlet or exhaust valve, failed gaskets are also detectable, as are piston or ring wear etc etc. £120 an hour labour is reasonable, some dealers are now charging £170 and more per hour, dealerships have large overheads to cover.
     
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  20. Stu9000

    Stu9000 Active Member

    Nov 4, 2021
    105
    33
    Kingston-upon-thames
    Yeah I think they are good guys, giving me all the info up front.
    I don't have access to a compressor. My bubble test kit will arrive soon. I'll check it, but maybe won't get a positive reading because the water isn't bubbling when the cap is off and I turn the engine over.

    I am wondering how my oil is getting contaminated with water. Gasket failure? Could condensation do it?

    I'm confused by the cap off and turning engine over test. Water not spouting up. This suggests no combustion to water failure.

    Is it possible to have a leak between oil and water, and not combustion and water?

    Thanks
     
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