Starting: is this normal

Discussion in 'Triumph General Discussion' started by Craigx, Nov 5, 2016.

  1. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    whilst chasing down a starting problem i noticed that there is only a spark at the spark plug when i take my finger off the start button. All the time that i am cranking the motor over the spark plug is completely dead. The battery, spark lead and plug are all new. I dont have a problem with this if its the norm. Just have to remember to lift my big thumb occasionally when starting up.
     
  2. thebiglad

    thebiglad Old fart, still riding !

    Sep 25, 2013
    5,066
    1,000
    Central France
    What's the details of the bike in question?
     
  3. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    Sorry, 1995 Triump Thunderbird 900.
     
  4. stevethegoolie

    stevethegoolie Elite Member

    Oct 16, 2014
    2,454
    800
    East Riding of Yorkshire
    Should get a spark when turning over (the engine, not you!).
    If you are getting a spark with the engine still turning after trying to start it and it is still spinning, then the battery is not supplying enough power to spin the engine AND fire the the plugs at the same time. This is not unheard of (apparently). Don't know where I saw this nugget of information but it now lurks quietly in my memory banks amongst much high class rubbish!:eek:
     
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  5. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    This was my thinking regards the battery. However, the battery was new this July and i dont want to buy another.
     
  6. thebiglad

    thebiglad Old fart, still riding !

    Sep 25, 2013
    5,066
    1,000
    Central France
    Hi Craig, as a check to see if the battery is the problem why don't you attach another battery with jump leads, then see if you have spark when turning over the motor?
     
  7. Col_C

    Col_C I can't re...Member

    Aug 5, 2015
    1,431
    800
    Cornwall
    +1 what biglad says, sounds like a weak battery or perhaps bad earth connection to engine (or other dodgy connections)?
     
  8. capt

    capt Elite Member

    May 8, 2016
    3,050
    750
    western Australia
    Hi Craig, I had a 1994 trident from new did 161,000 klms on it, the T300 range were all fitted with electronic ignition which was programmed not to supply spark for at least the first 3 full rotations of the motor, to stop backfires killing the spray clutch in the starter motor !!! The engines were known for holding compression fuel charge in a cylinder that stopped near top dead centre before ignition occurred. This charge could fire anywhere up to 1/2hr after switching off the motor and restarting, it would hold it that long. Even longer on some!!! So its normal if it is within the first 3 turns. You need to take all plugs out and do a longer crank over so if it starts sparking after 4 turns ?

    Some earlier models 93 and before possibly didn't get the factory recall to replace ignition model for 3 sparkles rotations before startup would occur! It was a known fault causing start system failure's.
     
  9. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    oh dear! however this bike is 1995 so should avoid that particular problem - keep in mind though. I am going to try and use jump leads to another battery to see what gives.
    Very difficult to start this morning as it was cold and frosty. eventually it did start reluctantly with no choke and only as I take my thumb off the start button.Thank you all for the help
     
  10. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    The current battery is a JMB14L-A2 . Not sure if these are any good. If not I shall replace it. Does anyone know of a good make. I have heard that Yuasa are reasonable.
     
  11. thebiglad

    thebiglad Old fart, still riding !

    Sep 25, 2013
    5,066
    1,000
    Central France
    I always use Yuasa's and never had issues with them and they are used by bike manufacturers.
     
  12. Col_C

    Col_C I can't re...Member

    Aug 5, 2015
    1,431
    800
    Cornwall
    Again +1 the biglad, I've used Yuasa in the past and they are good, but more recently I've gone for Motobatt and would recommend them also, manufacturer claims a "power balanced" design. Anecdotally they seem to be superior at holding charge on bikes that are not always used frequently but I've not seen scientific proof or indeed any claims from Motobatt.
    Just don't bother buying a cheap unknown brand, unlikely to last more than a year or two (personal experience :rolleyes:), it seems you get what you pay for in batteries.
     
  13. stevethegoolie

    stevethegoolie Elite Member

    Oct 16, 2014
    2,454
    800
    East Riding of Yorkshire
    Motobatt installed some 18 months ago and despite lack of regular useage over that time is still showing north of 12.6v whenever I check it. Rated at 190CCA means that it spins the engine over quickly and easily every time (I believe Yuasa have a battery to fit which is similarly rated) even when not used for a couple of months - e.g.early August to mid October, and it fired straight away after using the 'prime' setting on the fuel tap.
     
  14. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    Installed 3 new profire nologic coils and a new Motobatt battery. She starts up, but only when I take my thumb off the start button. I expected the new battery to fix this problem. I have run out of ideas now - could stick in some iridium plugs I suppose.
     
  15. bogg

    bogg Senior Member

    Feb 21, 2016
    300
    113
    west sussex
    had this problem on an old jap bike about 20 years ago..turned out to be starter button draining all the power
    not sure how to test it i'm sure someone will know
     
  16. Col_C

    Col_C I can't re...Member

    Aug 5, 2015
    1,431
    800
    Cornwall
    If she runs fine once started on your existing plugs then I doubt that's where the problem lies. It's sounding like either a faulty start switch (as bogg suggests), or relay, or perhaps most likely, corrosion in one of the connector blocks. Unless you're a dab hand with a multimeter and the wiring diagram it's going to be a bitch to find.
    Have you tried posting on the Thunderbird section of the forum, these sort of problems are often not unique if another Thunderbird owner (or your friendly Triumph dealer?) has had the same problem he might be able to point you in the right direction.
    Otherwise - I don't know your bikes wiring in detail but I would expect there to be a relay in the start circuit I would suggest starting with that, try cleaning the socket it plugs into and/or replace the relay (not unheard of for them to go faulty). Still no better? - next check the start switch, take it apart and check for bad contacts, if that's ok then trace back the wiring loom and check each connector block you come to for corrosion, clean and re-connect as you go.
    Good luck!
     
  17. Col_C

    Col_C I can't re...Member

    Aug 5, 2015
    1,431
    800
    Cornwall
    Definitely pointing towards that switch then Craig, with a 10 year old bike you can bet water/corrosion related problems will raise their ugly head sooner or later.:mad:
     
  18. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    Thank you all for some good suggestions. Looks like I'm taking the starter switch and relay apart tomorrow.
     
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  19. thebiglad

    thebiglad Old fart, still riding !

    Sep 25, 2013
    5,066
    1,000
    Central France
    I just use a quality aerosol can of Contact Cleaner. Cleans really well and leaves no residue to block electrical flow.
     
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  20. Craigx

    Craigx Member

    Sep 13, 2016
    10
    8
    Hassocks
    Found the problem. It was the neutral switch. Instead of giving continuety to earth it gave a 2 to 5 ohms connection to earth. When starting with the stand down and the clutch out the current to operate the starter switch goes to earth via the neutral switch. This gave a voltage of about 4-5 volts over the neutral switch and that is what the ignitor saw and not the earth it requires to give sparks. When you take the thumb off the starter switch the volt drop across the neutral switch dissapears, the ignitor starts giving sparks and as the engine is still rotating due to inertia the thing starts to run. Changed the neutral switch and everything is hunky dory.
     
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