Aggressive Overtakers

I am doing my IAM advanced training at present. After a good ride out last week my observer took the lead for the last few miles through some nice twisty roads. As we're training sticking to the speed limit is a must but I really struggled to stay with him. It looked effortless and really smooth but taking precise lines braking an accelerating out of the corners at the optimum point. Was a great point proved to me that there is fast and there is skilled riding!

 

I used to ride fast quite a lot ( thats not in built up areas etc ) , but I can say with 100% conviction that I always respected other bikers . I have seen those who can ride fast and have no respect for others . I have also witnessed those who can't take corners n lose all idea of respect when a straight line is ahead . Both these kinds riders scare me and the odd occasion they have been in groups with me I stay well clear n never share the road with um again .

 

Not particularly, I wasnt there and cant really judge from the vid. What I was getting at is that many drivers and riders seem to have a pet hate about how other people drive, yet 50 years experience tells me that no driver is perfect or follows all of the rules all of the time. The double whites is one case, obsessive left lane driving on a motorway is another. Yes I know they are rules, but then so is not speeding. Go on, tell me you never speed...I do, fairly often, a bit, say 75 instead of 70, and occasionally I will cross a double white to overtake anything on the bike, very rarely in a car to overtake a cyclist dragging himself up a long hill, but the point must always be that the overtake is safe, even if it is technically breaking the rules. I may have passed that camper on my bike, possibly, but definitely not in my car.

 

It looks that way to me Ade. Even for bikes those corners were blind that's why the white lines were there in my view because of the way the view round a large vehicle would be obscured.
Ades position was reasonably far back to see into the corners yet cars coming up the opposite side were just popping into view.
So can't say the bikes that overtook did a safe overtake. Yes it was possible and they took the chance.
As to double whites I'm sure there is not one of us that hasn't overtook on them but to do it when your view ahead is obscured.

 

I have to agree that this is the case, nobody is perfect.
However for me it always about being safe. In urban areas I like to think that I stay well within the speed limits at all times (both on the bike or in the car), but out on the open road providing it is clear and in my view safe I will push on past the speed limit. I'm guessing this is true for most on the forum.

On motorways I'm not sure that anybody (cars or bikes) actually drive/ride at the speed limit unless forced to do so due shear volume of traffic. I'm not saying everybody is thrashing at 100+mph but cruising between 70 and 80mph would seem to be the norm. The lack of traffic police I'm sure is the reason for this being the case.

As far as overtaking on white lines for me this is a no no, even if I know that the bike can make the pass within the road that is avaialble to me. The lines are there for a reason and therefore I will always respect this for my own safety.

Sorry about the ramble....

Wessa

 

Scenario.
A two mile tail back of stationary traffic in your single lane with double white lines.
Oncoming traffic has two lanes but not a vehicle to be seen.
Question: Queue for two miles behind the cars or nip in and out over the double white lines on your bike ?

 

Here you go Mick.

Rule 129
Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

 

Good question, given this scenario I would filter ........ This is a little different to the open road and crossing a double white line to overtake. But I understand why you have posed the question.
Wessa

 

Beat me to it.

Go over the speed limit slightly and chances are a copper would let you off, go over a double white line and it's another story. they are there for a reason.....

 

Great reply Tiglet!
I'm going to print that out and carry it with me.
Straight out now to look for traffic jams with double whites, catch up with you later lads!

 

Just be careful Mick,,,, it's dark out there

 

Road signage and paint are costly and generally not installed by local councils on a whim.Single/double solids are generally put in where there are various road side hazards or bends to protect the driver/ride from themselves no matter how great the road is as historically there may have been accidents there. I've just looked at Ade's cam footage again and you can see multiple hazards such as hidden entrances etc that may cause you an issue should you be overtaking. You can also see the solids stop and restart where they are not required. So if you see solids take a good look at the road side and up ahead and roll off as it may just keep you enjoying your ride a little longer..

 

So I get back to my point, about how drivers are selective in their response to the rules. I see many here repeating the line that white lines are there for a 'reason' so must be obeyed, but we all agree to occasionally, and I am sure only very slightly, beat the speed limit. But, is the speed limit not there for a reason? Hands up anyone who has never parked on a double yellow... anyone? you at the back there, is your hand up?....

All rules are there for a reason and all must be obeyed under strict liability so if you breach the rule whatever the justification you pay the fine. OK, but it is clear none of us keep all of the rules all of the time, so we become selective about which ones we adhere to most and then criticise others for breaking one rule while we break another. Just human nature but interesting. sorry for my ramble.

 

Solid white lines indicate a hazard, speed limits are more arbitrary and not necessarily connected to a hazard.
If you use the reasoning that if you speed sometimes, then it's ok to cross solid white lines, where do you stop i.e. I speed therefore it's ok to go through red traffic lights etc?

p.s. you can legally park on a double yellow line if unloading or loading

 

Sorry you miss my point, I do not say it is right to do anything against the rules, what I do say is that many here are happy to break certain rules but criticise others for breaking different rules.

Anyway speed limits are not 'arbitrary' they are all there for a reason, the reason being the powers that be have decided that to exceed a certain speed in a certain location or class of locations is undesirable, whether for public safety or 'eco' reasons, so it is not something that is left to the judgement of the driver.

White lines on the other hand, are arbitrary, because they only exist because a paid official in a certain locality judges them to be necessary. Said official must have in mind worst case scenarios, such as two HGV's trying to do HGV musical chairs like they do on motorways, but on a twisty narrow road. He will not usually make that decision on the basis that a single track vehicle like a bike will want to get past a slower vehicle. Nonetheless, though you or I may disagree with the body that sets speed limits or the official that decides where white lines go, they are both rules subject to strict liability, and not for the judgement of drivers in either case.

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself there with the arbitrary and non arbitrary reasoning?

Solid white lines will always indicate a hazard whether it's for all traffic or an Artic. , speed limits don't necessarily indicate one.

If you speed at 75 in a 70 it's odds on you won't be prosecuted for speeding, but you will at 95 i.e you are given some leeway with the 'rules'
When crossing a white line, it doesn't matter if it's one foot or six feet, the police will prosecute virtually all the time and give little leeway with the "rules".
Why do you think that is ?

As you say, it's up to the rider how much they're willing to risk their licence/life when breaking the rules but that's why some will "break certain rules but criticise others for breaking different rules" as some rules are more dangerous to break than others.

p.s. I wouldn't normally be this argumentative but it's quiet in the office today

 

yeh me too, fed up doin work work...

I honestly dont think it makes any legal difference. The cops have the power to prosecute for a 1mph infringement if they see fit The business about giving leeway is not written into law, its the association of chief police officers advice 10% plus 2mph. Crossing a white line is not really subject to an assessment of degree in the same way that say, doing a 100 in a 30 zone is lunacy and will result in a ban. If you are over the line you are over, you can only go to the far side of the carriageway or you are off the road entirely, and could then claim you were turning right!

But my point is that all of these rules are based on strict liability, and whatever you may think is safe or not safe, makes no difference, the rules are being equally broken. Now you can argue that there is something intrinsically more dangerous in crossing the white line than speeding, but I would say it depends in either case, on the circumstances, but that does not change the legal position. you done it you pay the fine...